Okay, here is the question.

Sould a DM create a magical item or plot device or monster that is so powerful it can circumvent the spell immunity of a particular class? Or is that just cheating?

Example: A book of magic that is so evil, so powerful that it can possess a paladin even though a paladin is normally immune to mind based attacks. (Let's not worry about rule systems and what classes having which abilities. Assume a class is immune to possession and the DM puts in a book so evil it can possess even that class.)

Thoughts?

That would make it all the more fun hun! You wouldn't know what your up against, and it would give another reason to go after the thing. You could have the entire inn as part of that game, have every different type of class out there trying to outsmart the ever knowing DM and their evil conspiracy.

*grins* I vote do it!!!

As a player, I don't personally like it when particular character abilities or traits I've worked for or towards are discarded for certain circumstances. Yet, as a DM, I understand such a need.

I assume you're talking about 3.5 or earlier edition, and I'm merely good with 4th Edition. But I do think that you can work just about anything you want or need to do, as long as you set up the circumstance correctly. For example, lets say (somehow) said Paladin was actually going up against a God or something, then I don't think a single sensible player would expect a normal immunity to work, sure.

However, especially if its merely some item...perhaps if you work in previously a slow weakening of the Paladin, or a quick one. For example, he was cursed by somebody before finding the book? Or else the book wore away very, very slowly? Perhaps, somehow, he loses the powers his god grants him, or at least have them drained or weak, perhaps due to where he is, such as a particular realm?

Basically, if you can work in a more specific reason than 'a powerful artifact', then your players may be more accommodating, if they normally give you problems. But, of course, it's completely up to each individual DM to do and play as he chooses and wants.

In the specific example I have, the party would be warned ahead of time that the book was powerful, evil and could be a danger to even the most pure of warriors. But I am more interested in the general idea of magic vs immunities in any game.

Another example could be ghouls wearing "Protection from Turning" amulets. That was in an actual TSR module. But do you think that is cheating? Where is the line in your mind?

I don't think it's cheating so much. I find possession to be super frustrating as a player any time of the day, regardless of the source. And I think that is the difference between evil book that possesses even paladins and giving ghouls amulets vs turning. There's another way around ghouls besides turning.

So two things, I guess...

I think it would be fine if:

1) Provide a way around the possession possibility? Maybe something simple that would seem too easy? (like washing your hands in holy water each day... or, maybe, the opposite... you need to wash your hands in putrid swamp water each day to avoid the power of the book?)

2) Where's the fun in this? DM's cheat all the time (at least I do), fudging numbers and rolls, usually in the name of fun. I trying to find the fun in seeing my paladin possessed by a terrible evil... it's not coming to me. It would be like using a "powerful" sleep dart to overcome my elf's immunity to magical sleep effects. At the bare minimum, I'd at least give the paladin a significant bonus to save against the possession.

I don't think that you should use "tricks" like this commonly, else players will give up trying to figure out what they "know" about your world and what they do not... and will thus become less invested in your game.

I would not advise to ever do this willy nilly... to have a magic that can possess a paladin "just because".

However, if you have built up a special magic item, and you have foreshadowed it enough that players understand it is unqiue... then I think that it is appropriate for it to have unique powers.

I've always valued the overall story, with all its plot-twists and shock moments and such, over strict adherence to the rules, myself... they're not so much rules as guidelines, anyway...

If it was my paladin in the situation described above (given the presumed foreshadowing and whatnot) I don't think I'd decide to go all "rules lawyer" about him being possessed by this particular book because, hey, what a great story that turned out to be, right?

(Hack and slashers might feel differently, of course)

So, yeah... Use the book!!!

By the same token, though, things like this shouldn't be common place by any means... that's just mean.

There is always going to be a debate when using items of such caliber. However it is a matter of how you set it up that makes the difference.

Say for instance that throughout the dungeons there are tests that challenge the heroes mettle, in mind and body. Perhaps there are events that could weaken the resolve of the Paladin, or risk him becoming fallen - a separation from the strength from his faith. If such a gap was then taken advantage upon, then sure the book could work.

However, if the player continues to pass the tests and maintain their vigilant service to their deity than they do not deserve to become possession bait. Send the book after another party member who is 'more corrupt'.

Just musing here. The story-telling must account for the role-playing; not just the assumption that every holy warrior is of same resolve.

I would say an item that could possess a Paladin, or poison a Monk, etc. would qualify as an artifact, probably even a major artifact.

Something that entire adventures could be built around. Maybe even a small campaign. Players typically assume that "anything goes" when it comes to major artifacts. I would liken something like that to the Annulus, which can nullify all psionics and even disintegrate psionic characters, items, and groups.

While not as powerful as the Annulus, an item that could cause fear to, much less control the mind of a Paladin would probably be either hoarded by evil forces or hunted tirelessly by good ones. If not, then it would surely be a legendary find.

Just thought of a good paradox!

1. An item is so powerful it can control the minds of Paladins.

2. Paladins are immune to all forms of fear.

3. Paladins fear the item powerful enough to break their immunity to fear.

Logic fail.

Definitely the whole of the campaign will be to find and destroy this book.

Love the input and thoughts so far. What i read so far is it all depends on the story behind it and as long as it isn't just a random encounter like a spuer charged rust monster or a skeleton with a "i'm immune to everything" ring.

Artifact, or artifact-esque? The MacGuffin that the entire campaign is based around?

Oh, yes... defintiely allow the mind control. The player that squawks about this clearly doesn't "get it".

I will be working on this module with the intentions to place it in Audalis and possibly do up as a module.

We shall see.

The "Grim" is definitely a artifact right down to the special way to destroy it.

While it might be a "cheesy" move I think that the artifact route is the best route. Not sure about the current edition, but the older ones actually said the rules are guidelines and not ironclad.

Give the pally fair warning that "Bad Stuff" happens regardless of who handles the book. Put some sagely advice in for him and his group to find. If you feel particularly nice, make it so the book's power can be warded against by anyone who takes the proper precautions however expensive or intricate they might be. (Never know when the paladin's gonna get himself GM-optioned, then someone starts groping around in the Bag of Holding the book's been stuffed into and accidentally touches it...hilarity ensues, except it's really not all that funny for anyone except the DM. It happened to me.)

Funny thing Alacrity you have pretty much just described my game the Trilogy War

You have the item, a very intelligent, highly malignant and evil sword able to eventually corrupt any who carry it long enough by whispering into their subconsisness through their dreams. Its power is strong enough to corrupt anyone including a Paladin, a Cleric, or anything living no matter the race or class immunities. Even the undead and the like are not immune to it, in fact are far more susceptible to its charm.

You have the counter to the item, a 1,500 year old last surviving member of a race, the Valar, immune to the powers of the swords corrupting ability. She and she alone can carry it and suffer no effects even blocking it once in her possession of reaching out to the people with her.

You have the storyline for the players of how their job is to keep her alive, recover the sword from its hiding place and take it to be possibly destroyed in 1 of 2 magically hot burning forges at 2 different locations. Thus giving them a choice of where to go once the item is gained.

All the ingredients of a great story and so far a great game........