I don't know what Tann's gladiator THAC0 is, nor his rate of attacks, but his Hit Points are higher than the Knight's, and his AC is just shy of the Dwarf.

He's max specialized in both the swords, got a STR of 18/00, and both swords are +3 enchanted, so, already his THAC0 is [whatever -9]... maybe THAC0 2? With 3 attacks/round? Something like [1d8 or 1d12 +12] x2 + [1d6 or 1d8 +6] damage output.

He'll probably be able to hold his own.... maybe.

Of course, the dwarf could just smash the doors open.

Maximus' HP are great, but seeing as how he's dual class, his THAC0 is awful for a front line fighter. The -4 AC is nice, but Arien is at -9 (would be -12 versus missiles, but 2nd edition caps at -10), gets 5/2 attacks, and his base THAC0 of 6 is effectively -4 when using his primary weapon... which he gets a massive +12 to damage with (+9 from girdle of giant strength, +3 from the sword's magic).

Remember, a dual class character can use the most advantageous numbers from each class (once he is at least equal in those levels), but that's all. Maximus fights as a 7th level fighter (THAC0 14), an 8th level rogue (THAC0 17). He'll obviously use the 14, but that won't stack up to the knight, dwarf, or ranger.

I'm not saying that Maximus is chopped liver, but me calling Arien a tank is not hyperbole. Maximus is not a good choice for point man in any situation aside from those requiring thief skills.

I see my ranger as a middle of the pack person unless we are traversing wilderness. Then she would be point.

I agree with ranger at point in the wilderness. I understood Alacrity's marching order question to be applicable to his dungeon. If I'm mistaken, smack me now.

My THACO is as follows

HIT POINTS: 144 Base THACO: 14
Melee: 11 (6 with long sword / 6 with short sword)
Missile: 12 (6 with hand axes)

He's not weak or vulnerable I think as he started out as a Gladiator and still has those benefits. Reason he became a Thief is in his history and since he is an 8th LvL Thief, 1 lvl above his 7th lvl as fighter, he gets all his fighter skills. I think I could hold my own with Arien behind me.

Tann, Maximus certainly has value, but putting him in front is going to accomplish one thing - he'll get to soak lots of damage with all of those hit points.

His base THAC0 is 14. Arien's is 6.

His THAC0 with one of his magic weapons is 6. Arien's is -4.

His AC is very nice at -4. Arien's is -9 (-10 vs missiles).

His damage output is weapon + magic bonus of +3 + strength bonus of +6. Arien's is weapon + magic bonus of +3 + strength bonus of +9.


So... Arien is going to get his noticeably less often. Arien is going to land hits far more frequently, and is going to hurt the bad guys more every time.

Maximus fills a vital role in the group - without him, we are at the mercy of every trap out there. Just because Arien can bash down doors doesn't mean that I think he should do so - Maximus is going to be more effective there by picking locks and removing traps.

Don't feel like me saying that Maximus is not a front line fighter is an insult. It's not, it's just pretty straightforward facts.

I'm just saying that I can if it comes down to it be in the lead. Below is my full sheet without being modified Alacrity's way.
You'll see I also do +12 damage and get 5/2 attacks with my prime weapon and 1/1 with my secondary. That gives me 3 attacks my 1st rd 4 attacks my 2nd rd if Roger runs attacks 2 first 3 second with 5/2. As for me being the only Thief, yeah you could say I have one of the most important duties in the party. However if needed I can still be in front or in second place to move quickly to the front. Its up to the party as a whole where I am at.

MAXIMUS JERALE

PLAYER: Tann’Talas
RACE: Human
GENDER: Male
AGE: 37
HAIR: Long Blond hair braided in a pony tail
EYES: Blue
HEIGHT: 6’5
WEIGHT: 160pds
CLASS: Fighter/Thief
LEVEL: 7/8
ALIGNMENT: Chaotic Good
XP: 64,000/70,000
NEXT LEVEL: 125,000/110,000

STR: 18(00) To Hit: +3 Damage: +6 MXP: 480lbs WGT: 335lbs BB/LG: 40% OPDRS: 16(6)
DEX: 17(18 w/Gloves) React Adj: +2 Missile Adj: +2 Defensive Adj: -3
CON: 17 HP Adj: +2(+3) System Shock: 97% Resurrection Survival: 98%
INT: 16
WIS: 8
CHA; 13

SAVING THROWS Poison: 10
Para/Death Magic: 10
Petrifaction/Polymorph: 11
Rod/Wand/Staff: 12
Breath Weapon: 12
Spells: 13

COMBAT HIT POINTS: 144 Base THACO: 14
Melee: 11 (6 with long sword / 6 with short sword)
Missile: 12 (6 with hand axes)

ARMOR CLASS: -4
+3 Elven Chainmail of Elemental Resistance (Grants the wearer 50% Resistance to elemental based attacks both magical and mundane.) Gauntlets of Dexterity
Boots of Speed

WEAPON PROFICIENCIES Axe Hand/Throwing (Specialist) (+2/+3) (3slots)
Long Sword (Specialist) (+2/+3) (3slots)
Short Sword (Specialist) (+2/+3) (3slots)
Dagger

NON-WEAPON PROFICIENCIES Ambidexterity
Blind Fighting
Charioteering
Distance Sense (CRE)
Endurance
Etiquette
Fire-Building
Gaming
Hunting
Jumping
Riding, Land
Set Snares
Swimming
Tumbling
NATIVE LANGUAGES Common

CLASS ABILITIES Fighter
Followers - Attracts followers after a stronghold is built and 9th level is reached.
Weapon specialization - Allows specialization in one weapon.

CLASS ABILITIES Thief
Thieves' cant* - Knowledge of the secret language of thieves.
Backstab* - Surprise attack may inflict 2x damage.
Climb walls* 55%
Detect noise* 60%
Find/remove traps* 100%
Move silently* 80%
Open locks* 100%
Scroll Use* 60%

KIT DESCRIPTION Gladiator
Description: The gladiator is a showman-warrior from a society where public combat competitions are a popular sport. The gladiator is a professional warrior in this high-profile arena; for the delight (and bloodlust) of the crowds, for his own personal wealth and aggrandizement (or, if he is a slave, for the profits of his owner), he fights organized matches against human, demihuman, and even monstrous opponents. The Gladiator is going to be a showy, high-profile warrior. He performs dangerous stunts in combat. He attracts the attention of crowds of admirers. He receives a lot of credit for brave deeds whether he deserves the credit or not. A Gladiator can be a callous brute, a dirty arena fighter with no interests other than killing his enemy as quickly as possible and making off with his prize; or he can be a clean-limbed, heroic figure, a hero who always fights honorably in the arena and never kills when he does not have to.

WEAPONS +3 Vorpal Long Sword ‘JAL‘ Sm/Med: 1d8+12 LG: 1d12+12 #ATKS: 5/2 JAL was re-forged with a red mystic gem on its pommel. When touched and the command word spoken, the sword changes with the blade goes to red becoming red hot as if taken fresh from a forge. In this form it is +4 vs cold using creatures and does double damage, However it loses the Vorpal power when hot. A second touch and the command word spoken in reverse JAL returns to it normal Vorpal state. +3 Short Sword ‘HOTH‘ Sm/Med: 1d6+12 LG:1d6+12 #ATKS 1/1 HOTH was forged with a blue mystic gem the blade crafted with glassteel. The sword itself does not reflect light nor make a sound when drawn from a sheath. When drawn, it casts a light in a 60' radius but only the bearer of the sword can see the light. 2x per day, a command can be given that turns the light into True seeing as per the spell for 5 rounds. The bearer can if desired share the True Seeing ability with two others if all grasp the hilt of HOTH. Like JAL if the gemstone is touched and the command word spoken the blade goes blue becoming ice cold like an icicle. The sword is +4 vs fire using creatures and does double damage. However in ice form, the light and true seeing can not be used. A second touch and the command word spoken in reverse HOTH returns to it normal state The two swords are a matched set +3 Hand Axes x2 Sm/Med: 1d6+12 LG:1d4+12 #ATKS 1/1
2 +2 Daggers Sm/Med:1d4+9 LG:1d4+9 #ATKS: 1/1

EQUIPMENT IN BACKPACK Bedroll
Flint & Steel
Grappling hook
Dry rations (4 week)
Iron rations (4 weeks
Oil Flasks x2
Rope 50' silk
Spikes (3)
Steel Mirror
Torches (4)
Thieves Tools x2
Waterskin
Wineskin.
Keoghtom's Ointment x2
Potion of Extra-healing x3
ITEMS WORN +3 Elven Chainmail of Elemental Resistance
Boots of Speed
Gauntlets of Dexterity
Ring of Free Action
Ring of
Cat’s Eye Gem This simple small gold gem looks like the eye of a cat. The gem grants infravision just like an Elf (60’) and is embedded to the right or left side of user’s eye. ITEMS CARRIED +3 Vorpal Long Sword ON BACK +3 Short Sword ON BACK +3 Hand Axes x2 AT HIPS Daggers +2 x2 IN BOOTS Thieves Tools of Silent Stealth These Thief tools do not look to be made of metal but some hard dark substance perhaps obsidian. While magical no means of detecting will reveal such. The tools have 2 main powers.
SILENCE: Any thief using these tools will make no sound when opening locks, disarming traps, or any such use.
STEALTH: When all tools are placed in case, case can be held against users skin and will magically mold into the users body disappearing from view. There they safely remain until user commands them to resurface.
Grants +10% to all thief skills SPENDING MONEY 150 GPS
70 SPS
ANIMAL ??

BACKGROUND Maximus Jerele started life as any normal boy born to loving parents and a part of a Sueli household, north of the Empire. His first 15 years of age were as normal as any child could hope for filled with love of a girl, happiness of youth and two very wonderful parents. But as with everything in life all good things come to an end and with the coming of the Empire so did Maximus’s normal life.

His parents killed and his village destroyed he along with a few hardy boys were taken as slaves to be trained for a new life and death in the Gladiatorial pits. His handlers were good and seeing in Maximus a possible champion they trained him both day and night and turned him into a good fighter and then as hoped for, a champion. So much the champion that the crowds knew him by face and placed upon him the nickname of "El Diablo", or translated to common "the Devil" and so they chanted it every time he did enter the pit.

For the next 10 years Maximus was champion, unbeatable by all, and seemed to savor this life so much so that though he was still watched and not trusted his guards grew lax and in a moment of surprise violence Maximus did kill them and escaped. Along with a few others Maximus now 25, was free.

The boy turned slave, turned Gladiator, now a free man vowed never to be a slave again. He turned Mercenary, went out into the world for the first time to fight for any and all including himself. At times even for free if the cause was right, against the realm he would hate till his dying breath that of the Empire. Maximus worked his way south, away from his former homelands and into the realms of the Iron League. Then one day, five years after breaking free, Maximus now thirty joined up with a newly formed group of adventurer’s.

This new group consisted of Arien Thedell, a male, human Knight, no one more noble then this Knight in training. Char, a human Ranger, no man better in the skill of a woodsmen. Dapple Moon a beautiful female half-elf Fighter/Thief, some called her crazy, Maximus called her friend. Kilgim Blackaxe, a male, dwarf, Fighter/Cleric, when called upon to heal or fight there was none more faithful to his god. Adrian Valentine, a male, human, Mage the first of his skill set Maximus had ever met in or out of the arena, but one to remember.

Finally there was Jal Spellbinder, another human Mage but different from the rest of this new party. As the adventure that had brought them together began Maximus found he and Jal had much in common and they soon became the closet of the group in friendship. In reality Maximus as a gladiator had never had friends, nor as a mercenary. For him Jal was his first true friend. Years came and went, daring quests and missions started and finished, and the party made a name for themselves. Life for awhile was good for this close group of seven friends.

However nothing lasts forever and it was on a mission to a tower of evil that Jal died. For the group as a whole the death of Jal was terrible and heart breaking, for Maximus it was devastating and the huge gladiator never fully recovered. Within a short time later the six survivors parted ways, each following his or her own path, the cloud of Jal’s death hanging over all.

During the next four years since leaving the others the time moving slowly Jal’s death ever hovering. Finding himself on his own, and having to support himself, Maximus turned to the skill of Thievery, finding even for his size, he was quite good at it. Little by little while learning the skills of a rogue, Jal’s memory a cloud of guilt, loneliness and despair. During this time Maximus found himself adventuring with many different groups, though never making as close friends as the original group. It was during one of these quests to the Hall of a Stone King that Maximus was able to give Jal the honor he deserved and lay the guilt felt over the Mage’s death to rest. During combat with an Iron Scorpion, Maximus was able to defeat it but lost his hand and his prized Vorpal sword was broken. A fellow party member, Galenthanus an Elven Mage/Thief, and son of Yolanda, lent the big gladiator his ring of regeneration to slowly re-grow the hand. During this time a dwarf smith named Otto, owing his life to Maximus and having taken two mystic gems from the scorpion. Used them to reforge the Vorpal blade and also make a matching short sword as well. When presented to the big Fighter/Mage Maximus named the new Vorpal sword JAL, the short sword HOTH.

With two new swords and his hand once more whole Maximus continues to adventure hoping one day to once again reunite with the survivors of that first group somehow.

I don't see how you get a +12 to damage. You get +6 from strength, +3 from magical bonus. If Roger also gives +1 per specialization slot, you'd have +2 more, for a total of +11 (you spent three slots per sword, yes? Two for specialization).

Arien would actually be +15 damage, then, as I maxed out the slots for his sword (4 total). +9 for strength, +3 for magic, +3 for specialization.


Also - you have listen ten weapon proficiency slots. Not sure where those came from. Warrior gets 4 at level 1, one more per three levels - so a straight warrior has 9 slots at level 15. Rogue gets two at level 1, one per four levels. However, you don't count the two at level one, you already got your starting prof slots (otherwise, somebody who left the profession of warrior would have move skills than someone who devotes their entire life to it... doesn't make sense).

So, you should get 4 warrior starting + 2 for level advancement (at levels 3 and 6). For rogue, you get two more slots (one at level 4, another at 8 ). That's a grand total of 8 slots, not 10.

C'mon, man. You don't get ALL of the warrior toys, plus all of the rogue ones.

Per the Players Handbook..............

Any time after reaching 2nd level, a human character can enter a new character class, provided he has scores of 17 or better in the prime requisites of the new class. After switching to a new class, the character no longer earns experience points in his previous character class and he can no longer advance in level in that class. Nor can he switch back to his first class at a later date, hoping to resume his advancement where he left off. Once he leaves a class he has finished his studies in it. Instead, he starts over in a new class, at 1st level with 0 experience points, but he does retain his previous Hit Dice and hit points. He gains the abilities, and must abide by all of the restrictions, of the new class. He does not gain or lose any points on his ability scores (for example, an 18 Strength wizard who changes to fighter does not gain the percentile Strength bonus, but likewise a fighter changing to a wizard would not lose it). The character uses the combat and saving throw tables appropriate to his new class and level.
This is not to imply that a dual-class human forgets everything he knew before; he still has, at his fingertips, all the knowledge, abilities, and proficiencies of his old class. But if he uses any of his previous class's abilities during an encounter, he earns no experience for that encounter and only half experience for the adventure. The only values that can be carried over from the previous class without restriction are the character's Hit Dice and hit points. The character is penalized for using his old attack or saving throw numbers, weapons or armor that are now prohibited, and any special abilities of the old class that are not also abilities of the new class. (The character is trying to learn new ways to do things; by slipping back to his old methods, he has set back his learning in his new character class.)
In addition, the character earns no additional Hit Dice or hit points while advancing in his new class.
The restrictions in the previous two paragraphs last until the character reaches a higher level in his new class than his maximum level in any of his previous classes. At that point, both restrictions are dropped: the character gains the abilities of his previous classes without jeopardizing his experience points for the adventure, and he earns additional Hit Dice (those of his new class) and hit points for gaining experience levels in his new class.

Once these restrictions are lifted, the character must still abide by the restrictions of whichever class he is using at the moment. A dual-class fighter/mage, for example, cannot cast spells while wearing armor.

So as a Duel classed character once I switched classes I was a total lve 1 Thief without the fighter abilities except HD & HP so I would have had the WP's for 7th LvL Fighter, though if used I'd take hits on exp and so on, and then up to an 8th LvL thief so it come out to 10 6 for 7th lvl fighter / 4 for 8th lvl Thief equaling of course 10.

Bottom line Roger ok'd him I'm sure if there was a problem he would have said something.

While I like 2e, I really appreciate the experience/level advancement and multi-classing rules of 3.5e. I feel like they stream-lined that bit better.

Anyway, side-tracked... on topic, how about we go with this set up for now:

(Asuming single file)
Arien
Maximus
Sparrow
Lun
Jarenion
Finarsil
Odyson
Kadrin

(Assuming paired-up)
Arien, Maximus
Sparrow, Finarsil
Lun, Jarenion
Odyson, Kadrin

(Assuming Circling Up)
Sparrow, Arien, Maximus
Lun, Jarenion, Finarsil
Kadrin, Odyson
If we find it not working out, we can cycle some characters around.

you are grossly overthinking this. The marching order dissolved as soon as you enter a room large than 10x10 and action happens anyway.

And what is this with posting rules? Nothing sets me off a game like rules being posted. I am here to have fun not argue the rules.

Think from your character perspective. Where would he/she best be suited in the few times you will be in a corridor?

No one is weak in the party. Statistically Max will miss more against the higher lvl bosses with -AC. His saves are not as good either. But there are eight of you working as a team so I think you have it covered.

Thanks, Roger, for calling us out.

Tann being a rules lawyer player!!!!

I was not trying to be a rules lawyer! I apologize if that's how I came across.

I posted that because I did not want anyone thinking I was cheating on my character creation. I created Duel Classed Maximus as I read the Duel rules. If I am incorrect I will gladly rework him.

And being in second spot behind Arien or being in the rear is ok by me.

I would love to have Kadrin in the very, very back in the few times were going through corridors. I think he'll feel uncomfortable if the persons in front AND behind are both blocking his view.

Plus I think like the roleplaying opportunities of "hey! what's happening up there?" and the image of the dwarf charging into a room from the rear ranks.