Grugg,

AC being merged into saving throws should have little effect on the actual game mechanics; after all, AC and Reflex are both based on Dexterity, and (if Star Wars Saga Edition is a good indication) armor still reduces the benefit of a high Dexterity in this regard. I can't see this fundamentally changing the way that players build their characters.

As far as I know, none of the classes are actually being removed—some of them are simply being put into other sourcebooks.

Whether dragonborn and tieflings should be core races ultimately concerns fluff more than it does crunch; as long as they're balanced against the other races, they shouldn't affect the game more than they did in previous editions.

In my opinion, the only major issue that you mention is the question of unlimited spells. Magic-users will indeed have access to spells that they can cast at will—just like warriors in 3E can use abilities like Cleave and Power Attack an unlimited number of times per day. It does have the potential (and the intention) of changing a big part of how combat works in D&D, but I hope that it doesn't become the sole major change that keeps you from trying out 4th edition.

I don't agree it's a minor change. From what I see of things, the 'feel' of D&D has been lost, as has the 'feel' of the old classes.

But anyhow, for all those who wish to stay with 3.5 edition there is hope! Paizo (the people that used to publish Dragon magazine) have launched a project called 'Pathfinder'. Basically it's a slightly revised version of the 3.5 rules, which they're going to continue to support.

I've only had a quick look, but I think it looks very, very cool. And its designed to be compatible with all the old 3.5 ed. material.

The link is: http://paizo.com/pathfinder/pathfinderRPG

If you want a real commentary on 4e D&D. A few of us read through and analyzed it.

Our lengthy and deeply analytical evaluation can be found:
HERE
WARNING: THE ABOVE LINK DOES CONTAIN SOME EXCESSIVE LANGUAGE. IT IS NOT 100% SAFE FOR MINORS.

That is very funny analysis of it, and sadly very true.

I don't think I'll ever get round to buying the 4th edition PHB myself. It would just really depress me, so I'm happy to go on pretending it never came into being.

Sometimes closing your eyes and hiding under a sheet is the best course of action...

Pretending it never happened.


This^

My friend is intent on getting me to abandon my system (FUZIONfantasy) and play 4E. I don't think it is because he finds the FUZIONfantasy rules poor, but instead, he is a devout D&D nut and really wants to get back to The System. Only, The System is no longer what it once was. I'm sorry, but I lost interest with D&D's rules at 3E, played on out of loyalty until 3.5, and then ditched the whole of it in favor of a more serious system. I'm never going to participate in 4E. As far as I'm concerned, WotC proved once again what idiots they are.

Well, I hope you don't abandon 2e & 3e because of the failings of 4e & beyond, Brom. They're both good systems.

I'm inclined to agree with most everyone here - these rules changes seem no less than ridiculous.

WoTC are a bunch of fools, admittedly. As a former avid Magic player, every set or so, they do something that makes old players of the game drop out. Because, unlike in D&D, you opting to not allow a certain set in Magic, even in casual play, is next to impossible. And in sanctioned play, such a thing is unheard of. I recently started playing again a year or so ago, and the game has become so overpowered it's ridiculous. They're printing munchkin cards left and right, making most former sets virtually unplayable and the game ruled by newbies. Needless to say, while I started playing again about a year ago, I stopped playing again shortly thereafter.

Sorry to go off on an un-D&D topic, but yeah...WoTC are idiots.

I haven't scrolled through the DMG yet, but after looking through most of the PHB, I can say I've found three things I like about 4e:

1. It officially combines Open Lock and Disable Device into one skill (something I've house-ruled for my 3.5 games)

2. It makes me appreciate 3.5 even more.

3. eh... Ok, maybe there's just the two things.

I've been reading through the odd review, and someone described 4th ed. as 'D&D Extreme!'.

I thought that said it all really.

Let's face it. D&D has always been designed to compliment the hack-n-slash player type. Killing things grants level advancement, the discovery of magic itmes grants level advancement, and level advancement makes the characters less and less playable with each achievement. AD&D was barable to me, but only because I was young. 3E was stretching things, and 3.5E kind of corrected some of the imbalances of its predecessor. Hate to say it, but I find less and less about those systems I like each day--4E is out of the question.

Sorry Cap'n Lou, but I haven't played D20 except in the games I play in here at the Inn where I can ignore the rules and focus on character development. Everything I've read about 4E indicates that WotC tried even harder to mimic the draw of video games in their flagship product, and in doing so have completely killed TSR's dream child. It is a mutation.

Yes quite. The 'DnD Extreme' comment was more about the drive WotC have to mimic MMORPGs or even dungeon-crawling games such as Diablo 2. What's important is not the roleplaying, but the rolling of the dice.

And in case anyone doubts that, the DMG (4th edition version) explicitly states what fun it can be to randomly pick a monster from the MM and start rolling some dice as if your character were fighting it.

Anywho, I'm not so dismissive of the d20 system, as others are. Personally I like 3.5 and I'm going to stick with it.

Played a game on June 7th, all first level characters.

They change a lot of names of things and it was not made clear how rolls were made or not made, nor what some of the titles of things meant or entailed.

It is simpler. Simple character sheet about one page plus spell if you have them. Idiots might find it easier than thinking.

Simple saving throws you don't roll you have a number enemy beats it and your toast.

Sure you get Magic Missile worth 2d8 that can be thrown at well but oppenents get to save against it. Had first level mage with high Int. but opponents were saving like crazy She had two encounter spells and one daily spell.

At first level my Wizard elf had 22 hit ponts. Fighters only had 28-30 so she was more survivable.

It is so stupid, they changed the names of elves to Eldurian None of the other races names were changed. Tolkien does not have a copyright on that name it is a part of history of many land.

Acid Arrow keeps on given damage until Wizard fails to over come opponents save. IT was easy to fail most opponents had numbers over 12 and up to 15 and they were just goblins orcs and ogres. It was kinda of weird and lot of extra rolling, though you had a chance to have the acid still working rounds later however I never did get beyond 2 rounds. Also Acid arrow can splash of friend and or foe in adjacent squares.

I admit I downloaded the books, skimmed through the PHB and promptly deleted the heretical bits from my computer, and this is coming from a gamer that grew up on 3rd and 3.5, what I know of 2nd edition is limited to the little I've heard and Icewind Dale, the computer game.

Removal of half of the alignments, abilities divided by per day, per encounter, at will... revamp of the races and the bonuses you get for being a race, classes, and then there's the part I hate the most.

I play World of Warcraft, love it, have a friend that played Guildwars, both of us saw similarities of both games and 4th edition. DnD has always been it's own game, and any console or computer game using DnD rules have the DnD logo on it, now it feels... like an MMO knock-off.

I'm going to stay away from 4th ed. and I'm actually looking around to see if I can get my hands on 2nd edition and the popular 1st edition and see what they're like.

WotC are trying to streamline the game, make it more narrow and specific to make it easier to play, but in my opinion it's the sheer flexibility of the older versions that made DnD so great, yeah some of the rules were vague and there were a lot of loopholes, but that made the game more fun, especially when you have a good DM that can make a good house rule on the spot.

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For any who might remember me, yes I'm back, kinda, don't expect me to try to get back into any games soon, but you'll see me around in the forums.

Hello everyone from Huntington Beach Ca.
I've been reading the thread on 3.5 versus 4.0. As a new return to D&D after 15+ years away,well I was shocked at the changes.

I played 1st edition AD&D and D&D anyone who's been around will understand. In fact what has changed is the way D&D is played it is becoming more of a tabletop game then role playing. I play table top games at the Game and Hobby day 2nd Sat of every month(Mini Convention) in Anaheim Ca. There we Play Battletech,Star fleet Battles,Flames of War and more.

Well one weekend my Daughter 11 was introduced to AD&D and begged me to buy D&D which is the boxed set Basic for 3.5 . What a dramatic change some of it was good. Some of it stinks. But what I noticed now is the that it resembles a Board game more now. Also 3.5 wow so many new things it was overwhelming. Lucky for me I have a good 3.5 DM in Long Beach at the Game Store the WarHouse teaching me.

I had to admit that at first I didn't like the changes but some how I feel 3.5 has some neat ideas . But I miss Role Playing vs Roll Playing I get enough of that in BattleTech.

SO in the spirit of trying to be open I tried 4.0 and OMG I felt like at 41 I was being asked to play like a kid in a PC game. It left me with such a bad feeling and my wife hates it as she loves a story based thinking game,solve the mystery see how the plot runs the course etc. She won't ever play again. So I decided to get out all my remaining books I had dust them off buy some on E bay what I had lost and Run AD&D 1st edition and D&D Basic edition .
In fact I will be running the Original Keep on the Borderlands.

Now with that all said I think D&D will evolve even more into camps AD&D players,D&D, D&D 3.5 and 4.0 for the kids.
It is just a matter of what you want Heck we are writing about this already at the OCRPG yahoo group I run and the Orange County Meet-up site. As far as I see WOTC has just splintered the D&D Role Playing and Roll Playing camps even farther apart.

But hopefully in time things will find balance and those who own ther own stuff will save money. Or then maybe we can all hide our heads in the sand and pretend WOTC really cares about our RPG and isn't in for the money.

OK, I've read up on 4th edition, and it just doesn't fly with me. Now this is just my opinion, I'm not trying to tell others what to think. But I'll admit, I grew up on 1st and 2nd eds., and those are what I got most familiar with; hence they will always be my favorites. To me, there was just always a certain "feel" when you played old-school D&D, and that feel is what I will always associate with D&D. 3rd ed. & 3.5 still had a bit of that feel; thus, I did play them some and had a moderate amount of fun with them. The Eberron campaign setting was especially fun to me; again, though, just my opinion.

But having read up on 4th edition and having read the books themselves, I just don't get that feel at all anymore. I fully agree with the opinions that this is just an MMORPG on paper. Some of the limitations that have been removed were some of what made D&D challenging to me. For example, the limit on number of spells per day. That was a fun challenge, because you had to really think about the situations you were going into, and try to plan spell usage accordingly. Now, you just barrel in and hammer off spells left and right, and that just doesn't feel right to me (I know, I know, all spells aren't like that, but there are still those spells that effectively have no limit on usage). The spell limit, to me, also gave a feel that magic wasn't a limitless resource; it was an arcane and powerful art that had to be used in moderation, and had to be approached with forethought and strategy. Not so anymore.

Having said all that, let me say again that this is just my opinion and mine alone. If you're a fan of 4th ed, then more power to you, and I hope you have great fun with it. I guess that with D&D it is as with all things: different strokes for different folks. Whatever cranks your tractor, as long as you're having fun with your gaming.

So, like 4th ed. or lump it; just have fun with whatever gaming system you use. After all, that's what gaming's all about, isn't it? When the fun is gone, then the point is lost.

Happy gaming to all, 4th ed players included.